Star Wars Sequels Debate and Breakdown RETCON? Hip-Hop Who-Rey?

The most debated episode in Hyperspace Hottakes history is finally here — and it's about the most divisive Star Wars media of ALL TIME: the Sequel Trilogy! Odie and Rogue break it all down before we get into the main event.

We're joined by Matt Beutner from the Force of Others Podcast and a SPECIAL GUEST to go head-to-head against Odrog Culture Alumni — Syndicate Customs Creations and The Bearded Saber Guy — in a full-on debate: "Star Wars Episode VIII is true to Star Wars and its lore." The arguments are fierce, the takes are hot, and the verdict is in YOUR hands. Head over to our Instagram after the episode to cast your vote!

And as always, we close things out with Honour the Ghor — this week we're tackling your RETCON questions. Is it really canon? We share our thoughts. Don't miss it!

ODROGCULTURE 10% off code for JWSabers - The only stockist for TXQ and an All-Australian Company!

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We at Odrog Culture want to bring you the best and JWSabers offers that. The Crime Syndicates have put on a HUGE Bounty on them, so make sure you hunt them down at Oz Comic Con in Sydney and Canberra!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

OddrogPulture presents Oddrogs in Hot Pods. I'm Odie and I'm Rogue. And together, this is Oddrogs in Hot Pods. And we're off for another episode of Oddrogs in Hot Pods. I am here with my co-host. Here we are, it's Rogue. We are discussing the sequel trilogy in our hyperspace hot takes. Strap yourselves in, ladies and gentlemen. We are going to be exploring, yes, the sequel trilogy. In 15 minutes, we're gonna try. Then we're going to launch into ETUTA, where we have an absolute showdown for you today. Rogue, it is the bearded saber. Back again, your guy. Talk to us.

SPEAKER_05 0:49

Here it is. He's back for the for the hot debate in a Tudor.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

Yes, so Matt from Force of Others podcast bringing along a friend of his to debate the Syndicate Custom Creations and the Bearded Sabre guy. It is on like wicket wearing a thong. Nice improv. I like it. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:14

No one no one wants that image in their head. Anyway, depends what you're into, I guess. But before we get going on hyperspace hot takes, I want to ask you a really big question, Odie. What were the sequels actually about? You've got the original trilogy, it's about hope, right? The prequels are about tragedy. The sequels seem to be about legacy, but I feel like every major character wrestles with it throughout the sequels, and I'm sure we'll we'll touch on it today. But that's what I want us to think about and our listeners to think about. What was it actually about? And we'll see if we can answer it in today's hyperspace hot takes.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

Odie, do you want to kick us off? We tend to look for things for clarification of our own beliefs, and they're blindsided by our own conviction when it comes to films that we don't like. And looking at this this trilogy, it really made me think about that, and it made me think about well, what are the true things that I love about it? I never realized, and this is a shout out to Ryan George from Screen Rant, who I was watching about these many moons ago. But he talks about that each film represents an original trilogy character. Episode seven. It's about the legacy of Han Solo coming to a close. Episode eight, The Last Jedi. Yeah, that's who it's about. It's about Luke Skywalker. It's the legacy of Luke Skywalker coming to the c to a close as he looks across and looks into the future. Sees those twin suns going down. You know, he he's reflecting on the past and looking to the future. And Ray is that future. And then you have episode nine, which is of course a legacy to the late Carrie Fisher, Princess Princess Leia, or as general as she likes to be called. It's an ode to her and and the closing of her legacy. Ray's lightsaber is one of my favourite things about the sequel trilogy, the yellow lightsaber, Poe's X-Wing fighter that I mentioned before, that black and orange, and the way he manoeuvres that X-Wing in episode eight. Maskenada's castle is uniquely Star Wars. Coming in, seeing all those aliens there, listening to the music, seeing everything happening at that time is really enjoyable and really fun. My next light side hot take is Kylo killing Snoke was cool and subverted expectations for me in episode eight, which is really what it was trying to do and what Ryan Johnson was really trying to do. And I understood that.

SPEAKER_05 3:41

I thought she was going to. I thought she'd be tempted. I thought she'd be tempted by the overall temptation that you you see throughout throughout the film. But for me, I think it's it was really the the collapse of Snoke's backing as a character that destroyed that moment for me. Yeah, it was the fact that he was just a clone or just a creature of Sidious's puppeteering, you know. For me, that that was a really weak plot point. That moment could have been so much more had Snoke actually been everything we were sold on him being in The Force Awakens. And I so I think for me that moment would have been so greater if it was if if it wasn't for that weakness in the plot.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

And of course, my final light side hot take, and I'd love to get your opinion on this, and I'm not sure if you thought about it, but Kylo Wren fulfilled Anakin's endeavour. He he fulfilled Anakin's ambition, he fulfilled Anakin's need to be powerful in the force to save the ones he loves. And he does it at the end of episode nine, saving Ray.

SPEAKER_05 4:54

Sure, it it aligns it aligns relatively well, but I I still think it detracts from the sacrifice and from the original Anakin being the one to bring balance. Having said that, I've got plenty of lightside takes that I really liked about the sequel trilogy, but yeah, some some of the plot lines were were a little bit repetitive, which I will get into.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

Well, dare I say it. Shall you pull the uh the holdo maneuver and jump to light speed, mate? Get into those lightside hot takes.

SPEAKER_05 5:27

It's funny you mentioned the holdo maneuver because that is one of my lightside lightside hot takes. But my number one was that Ray, Finn, and Kylo. Similar to what you might need to get the sabres out for this one. Similar to what you'd stated, you know, Ray, Finn, and Kylo were some fantastic character concepts. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, the number two I had was the Force Awakens revitalise Star Wars. You know, it was ten years without a live-action Star Wars film when Force Awakens came out, and it had an enormous task in front of it. And look, I talk a lot about it playing safe, but I think it succeeded by making Star Wars feel exciting again. Yes, you know, it got us excited for what the following eight and nine would would deliver on. And I think in The Force Awakens it delivered practical effects, adventure, humour, memorable new characters, iconic imagery. They were really clever with how they linked the characters back to the original trilogy cast. And and my fourth hyperspace hot take for the light side was Kylo Wren became one of the one of Star Wars' most complex characters. You know, the sequels really belong to Kylo. His journey isn't a simple fall of darkness, it's a struggle between legacy, expectation, identity, belong to he wants to become Darth Vader, but unlike Vader, he cannot silence his conscience.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

Kylo Wren is the answer to all our original trilogy characters. They all meet their demise on some form of connection with Kylo.

SPEAKER_05 7:02

Yeah, and I feel like his conflict literally becomes the emotional backbone of the trilogy. Like you you you follow his his roller coaster of emotions and it steers the films. And my last hot take was some of the best visuals in franchise history are in the sequels. And you touched on it before, you know, crates, red salt plains, the Starkiller base forests are really underrated. Ucto's oceans, wild, unpredictable, you know, similar to what was happening with the Jedi Order at the time, Exegoles lightning storms, you know, the sheer power of the dark side, yeah, and like you mentioned before, the holdo maneuver, regardless of story debates, the visual craftsmanship is out of this world, and it's extraordinary. And I think that's what I really appreciate from the sequel trilogy.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

As Star Killer Base, do you think they planned for it to be Ilum, or do you think that was introduced later to develop the story more?

SPEAKER_05 8:07

Good question. I think it was it was added in later to add gravity to the fact that it would be blown up because obviously Elam being one of the primary planets to source kyber crystals. I think its loss is huge to the Jedi Order. So it had it carried greater weight and greater significance. But yes, I I think perhaps it was added later. I actually think it's a huge tragedy that it was blown up, to be honest, because it has so much lore behind it.

SPEAKER_04 8:37

Us Jedi fanboys are sitting here in tears, playing. I remember playing Fallen Order for the first time and realizing that it's becoming Star Killer base, and I was like, oh man, come on, like you can't do this to us.

unknown 8:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:53

No, it's a sacred planet to the order. Come on. Who decided this?

SPEAKER_04 8:57

I'm a I'm a firm believer in hope, as you know. So I maybe perhaps if the Death Star can survive the explosion that it possibly has, perhaps there's clusters of kyber crystals just floating through space.

SPEAKER_05 9:10

I thought you were about to go with there's an Ilum 2.0 then, and I was like, hang on a second.

SPEAKER_04 9:15

That's a little bit that's a little bit not as ridiculous as things that we're gonna launch into on our dark side. I'm hanging out waiting for your dark side hot takes. This could take a while. If you've got the original trilogy cast of Han Leyer and Han, Leyer and Luke, you've also got the prequel trilogy trio of Obi-Wan, Padme, and Anakin. Really, that's the that's the the comparison here. If you think about everything that those characters experience between those six movies, it's huge. Where in these three movies, it's almost forced, the relationship feels forced upon us that we're expected to feel something. That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was my first dark side hot tag.

SPEAKER_05 9:59

Yeah, it almost pre it almost predetermines the closeness of the relationship without showing you it on the screen. That's that's how it felt watching.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

The Holdo maneuver, it actually would have been better if it was someone that we knew better. It wasn't just some person that we met in this episode. And I and I apologize for all the holdo fans out there, but I just think I didn't have that connection with her that maybe some other fans do. But when she made that maneuver, when she made that sacrifice, it didn't mean anything to me. And I didn't really care for her. In fact, sometimes I found her quite infuriating.

SPEAKER_05 10:37

We were cheated out of Snoke's backstory, we were cheated out of the uh out of the new hero's backstory, we were cheated out of out of Holdo's backstory, and and and you you you didn't have the time to to create a connection with these characters or their legacy that was somehow being played out on the screen and the expectation that you would feed into that or buy into that. And I I completely agree with that.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

Now more than ever, I think we need heroes. Luke Skywalker being flawed, seeing him drink the green milk, and I know that upsets so many Star Wars fans. For my old man, he enjoyed that moment because he said it's about being flawed and about being human. And in rebuttal to him, I said, Yeah, but Luke Skywalker's a Jedi. There are there's people out there that really believed in this in this moment, but for me, you know, it wasn't that. It wasn't Luke Skywalker being flawed. I it turned a flawless hero, something we can try to strive towards, someone who stood up to the largest evil in the galaxy, who tempted us with lust for power and giving in to our anger and hatred, and Luke Skywalker turned around and said no.

SPEAKER_05 11:48

But it's also our perception of the Jedi, you know, and and that is built up over the the prequels, the original trilogy. You know, we we have this pedestal view of what it means to be a Jedi, but it also is aspirational and it's inspiring. And I think Luke in episode eight he contradicts that, he goes against what we understand it is to be a Jedi master, what it is to be one of the last of his kind, and holding that beacon of hope, and he extinguishes that light right in front of us in episode eight, that almost it leads to the audience losing hope in the Jedi. And I think that's it's it's like capturing that, and you know, I think that's one of the biggest disappointments of episode eight, and we talk about it a lot, a lot of fans talk about it. It doesn't do Luke Skywalker justice, let alone what it means to be a Jedi.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

No matter what you think about Star Wars, if you love this and and you're all about it, I'm all for you, and and I love people who have opinions, and I love people and sharing opinions with people and listening to people with opinions, and I think that's what makes Star Wars community so great and grand, is the fact that you can have any entry point into Star Wars. I'm gonna get into my next dark side hot take here. And while I do, I think episode eight kind of force episode nine to make some decisions that weren't ideal. And I think they could have gone two ways with this, and and perhaps at the drawing board they made some poor decisions. But that's my own opinion, once again. You know, I think around the fact that episode nine, the palp somehow Palpatine has returned. The thing of, oh, here are some Star Destroyers with some galaxy destroying or some some planet destroying guns, and every single Star Destroyer has got one. You know, it it reminds me of eight eight-year-old, ten-year-old Odin rogue playing toys, but it's not a conversation around a writer's table. This is where the future steps into play. The love of a fandom, the reliance on the storytellers, the dreamers, the storyboarders, the artists, the animators, the publishers, the concept designers, the beautiful people that make up the fandom to make Star Wars what it is. A story of hope and endurance and legacy we mentioned, to see through hate and to bring its purity to the forefront of life. We know what good looks like. We know what a good hero looks like, we know how to help each other through tough times. And I think the whole essence of this sequel trilogy is now being backed by all those brilliant creative people and the people that love Star Wars now to fill in those gaps and to make Star Wars as brilliant as what it always has been.

SPEAKER_05 14:46

But I think that's that's the biggest struggle with these films. Everything felt rushed, everything felt like it was compensating for the decision that was made in the film prior, and it felt reactionary. It didn't feel like you were reaching a crescendo. It felt like the crescendo had occurred, and now you were scrambling to make sense of it.

SPEAKER_04 15:04

We go from the prospect of Finn to becoming a Jedi to then just becoming Ray's fanboy. Finn shouting, Ray, Ray, you know, constantly through episode nine, only to tell her that he feels the force, you know? And yeah, yeah, we we guessed that in episode seven, and it's taken us two films now just to mention it. Come on.

SPEAKER_05 15:27

Like, where does where does his I think Finn may represent the trilogy's greatest missed opportunity? I mean, what isn't cool about a former stormtrooper discovering individuality, morality, and force sensitivity? I mean, come on. That's almost uh its own separate TV series if you if you give it time to breathe. It could have been revolutionary.

SPEAKER_04 15:49

I got a question. If you were to give him a lightsaber, what colour is he having?

SPEAKER_05 15:54

Uh I would say probably blue. Go blue? Purely because well, the character we we look at and the character we get to know as Finn seems a little bit anxious, a little bit unsure, a little bit still coming into his into his own. And I feel like as a Jedi, he'd be he'd very much follow the book because he is so unsure. You know, people like that often follow some sort of religion or something to give them some meaning or purpose or structure so they don't feel as anxious, right? We tend to cling to strong a stronger sense of self, and so for me, blue lightsaber represents that. So I think he'd have a blue lightsaber.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

Yeah, see, I think he's got a protective nature. So I think I think he'd be wielding yellow as well. I think both him and Ray would be wielding yellow lightsabers.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

Yeah. You are you are truly overestimating the character of Finn and what we were seeing by giving by bestowing the absolute honour on him of giving him a yellow lightsaber. Odie.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Give him his time in the limelight, wielding that yellow lightsaber. Hell, you know what? Give him two lightsabers, give him a yellow and a blue. Let's see. So they're my dark side hot takes, but let's hear it. Let's hear that that saber ignite, that unstable kyber crystal that you've got going on in that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:13

Let's do it, and let's hear you just unleash dark side hot takes. The sequels often feel like episode seven asks questions, absolutely, episode eight rejects those questions, and then episode nine tries to answer why those rejections took place and tries to answer the questions anyway. It's almost like yeah, it's almost like episode nine goes, Oh no, no, no, don't don't don't worry about what happened in episode eight where we rejected all those things. Let us explain them anyway. You don't need to see those questions. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You don't need to watch episode eight in order to understand the sequel trilogy. Yeah, no. There is and the result can feel reactive rather than planned. And I okay, so it's hard not to talk dark side hot takes and not mention the return of Pelpertine. Hang on, did Palpatine return? The line somehow Palpatine returned. It's gotta be the biggest the biggest gag of the sequel trilogy. Of the sequel trilogy, and it's become it's become infamous both for the right and the wrong reasons. The resurrection of Emperor Palpatine divided audiences because it lacked sufficient setup. It reduced the impact of Vader's sacrifice, which I spoke about before. Everything felt on repeat of the original trilogy. Hey, the original trilogy was such a s it was such a hit in the 70s and 80s. Let's recreate it again. Mm-hmm. It arrived extremely late in the trilogy, so there was no talk of Emperor Palpatine, there was no build-up to it. All of a sudden, he was just there in episode 9 as a mad scramble to save the trilogy. And it to be honest, it did the opposite. To this day, I still wish that Ray was a descendant of Obi-Wan. I think it would have been perfect. We went into the sequel trilogy expecting big things, but each of them received dramatically different receptions. The biggest debate is one we've taught we touched on earlier around Luke Skywalker. You know, supporters saw a realistic portrayal of a broken hero confronting failure and all the story arc uh storylines that come with that. The critics and the people that were loyal to the original trilogy, and the idea of the Jedi, the idea of Luke Skywalker as this beacon of hope, saw a betrayal of the optimistic Jedi who redeemed Darth Vader in in episode six. And I think that divide remains probably one of the most passionate debates in Star Wars history. I mean, even Mark Hamill has come out and said, I wish it was different. And we spoke about that earlier. And and it doesn't matter, Odie, how many fillers you create in The Mandalorian, in Ahsoka, in hell, in Luke Skywalker's own series. We can never take that back because that's his future. And I think that's what really sucks about it. Sure, it'd be great to see Luke Skywalker content. Give it to me, episode six to episode seven. I want to see it all. I want to see the building of the Jedi Order. I want to see Luke reaching his full potential. I want to see the Jedi Order rebuilt. But all the time there'll be that niggling thought in the back of my head, this is only temporary, because they destroy the character in episode eight. So that that was my number four thought.

SPEAKER_04 20:43

Luke Skawka and everything that we wanted for him. It's I think it's being dispersed. I think it's being dispersed with the hidden path. I can't go through a podcast episode without mentioning Quinlan Voss. It's let's just talk about my boy Calchestus as well. Tannalore, let's go. New Jedi Order. It's hidden, man. You can't find it. It's your hope is there. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_05 21:07

Alright. My hope is that somehow they'll underwrite or write out episode eight. And some way it'll be like this just bad dream that we all managed to wake up from. And the Jedi Order was fine. Someway, I'm thinking most of the Jedi from Luke's New Jedi Order just go to wherever Grogu is at the time of episode eight and the Jedi Order survive. And it's all it's all it. That's that's kind of what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 21:36

They're going to Tanalore, don't worry. But besides that, you've really got the the unstable saber out. You are you are not holding back here, and I'm loving it.

SPEAKER_05 21:44

No, yeah, no, it's it's definitely flickering. It's about to go out. And my and my final one is the trilogy often fought against itself, and I know that's a recurring theme in our Dark Side hot takes, but the most common criticism isn't in. Individual movie, it's the lack of the narrative alignment between all three. The major mysteries are established, then they're dismissed, then they're revisited, then they're replaced. And the trilogy sometimes feels like one story rather than three responses to one another. And I think that that's that's that's probably one of the look.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

There is a lot of good stuff as well as negative stuff. Oh, we can that we definitely didn't mention, you know. And as I always say to you, you can reach out to us on what's our email? It's oddrog.culture at gmail.com. Or you can Instagram us, but what about our Instagram?

SPEAKER_05 22:42

What is that? Well, you can Instagram us at oddrog underscore culture.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

Check us out there. You should. You should. And you could you should tell your friends about our podcast. We love sharing things with everybody. We want to we want you to be on the show whenever you feel the chance. And we thank you for listening and joining us on this hyperspace travel.

SPEAKER_05 23:06

I want to ask you a really, a really uh serious question here. Yeah. So when the prequels originally hit the hit the big screen, they were highly criticized, highly hated, a lot it divided a lot of fans, it had it had a few fans excited, but now they've become such a well-respected part of Star Wars lore, and so very much incorporated into our understanding. Do you think that in 10 years' time, looking into the future, taking a taking a look into you know the future of Star Wars, with the additional TV series that are coming out that are going to be coming out, with the additional films that are likely going to be coming out, do you think we'll one day look back on the sequel trilogy and go, you know what? They were pretty good. Similar to what we've done with the prequels.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

I think if we continue down that path of exploring legends and we give quality understandings of character and drive and backstories, you know, we talked about the missing of backstories, and we're already starting to see that in comics, you know, the new release of the Kylo Ren comics, it looks unreal. You know, seeing his turn, seeing his development, his connections with Snoke, seeing his connections with Vader and exploring his time between episode eight and episode nine. We're seeing all those things come to fruition through extra Star Wars media. And I would love to see this kind of developed within shows and and everything else. So I think it has potential, yeah, is a quick answer.

SPEAKER_05 24:46

Yeah, I agree. I think in in years, the sequel trilogy may ultimately become Star Wars' most fascinating era. Not because everyone loves it, not because everyone hates it, but because no other Star Wars films generated such passionate debate. The sequel trilogy isn't the story of victory or failure, it's the story of potential, and I think we'll continue to see that potential unravel over the coming years. Sometimes realized brilliantly, sometimes frustratingly missed, and perhaps that's why we're still talking about it. Because beneath all the arguments, every Star Wars fan can see glimpses of the incredible trilogy it could have been, and I think we'll continue to explore that.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

Absolutely well said. And with that heavy realization, bearded Sabre Guy, Syndicate Customs versus Force of Others podcast with a pal. And they're arguing episode eight, the last Jedi, is true to Star Wars and builds on its lore. Let's find out what they really think. I really can't wait for this one. Let's go get it. And welcome to our Italy debate for episode four. Star Wars Episode 8 is true to Star Wars and its lore. Usually sitting beside him is his co-host Zach, but today we introduce Matt Butner of Force of Others. With a career in theatre, running a theatre company, and a passion for plays like Much Ado About Nothing, A Few Good Men, and Hamlet. Is it to be that he will take it out today?

SPEAKER_00 27:25

I'm a writer, I'm a loyal friend, and I love Star Wars.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

But he isn't alone in this battle. Joining him is Donnie from the pod podcast Medler's Corner, normally with his co-host, Matt Dern. But today he joins Force of Others podcast. He is no stranger to talking, but he's also no stranger to electrifying his audience.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Like Matt, I am a loyal friend friend, but I'm also a passionate friend. Loves Star Wars, and being a dad is the greatest thing in the world.

SPEAKER_05 27:56

It's massive to have two heavy hitters on the show today, and I'm super excited by that. Bidded Saberguy, he's combining his passion for lightsabers and beard care, and he's built a strong following through lightsaber unboxings, reviews, collecting content, and Star Wars discussion. If you're into Sabres collectibles or a quality beard product, he's got you covered. Be sure to check him out at Bidded Saber Guy at his Instagram handle. Joining him is the one is the one and only Syndicate Customs. Also based here in Australia and shipping worldwide, Syndicate Customs specializes in 3D printed figure customization parts, custom painted accessories, and unique upgrades that help collectors bring their Star Wars displays to life. You can find Syndicate Customs on Facebook and through their website. Guys, it's so good to have you back on the show today. Maybe not super ready, but sweeper keen. We just don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

No feelings gonna be hurt. That'll be fine. Recon. We're gonna score this debate as we always score our debates. There's three ways that you can win. There's three rounds. You're gonna be marked on Star Wars Law. You're going to be marked on evidence provided. And finally, you're going to be marked on your delivery of your point. The winner will, of course, receive Designed Shirt by Odie from Old Rogue Culture. That's me. The winner will also receive a certificate. Shall we get started for the positive side? We have Matt and Donnie.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Take it away, gentlemen. I'll admit it's not my favorite movie, but The Last Jedi is absolutely true to Star Wars lore. Octo is a concept that makes complete and total sense. The way they portray the balance of the force fits with the lore. A one-man fighter being small enough to evade the turbo lasers fits with the rest of the lore. The force isn't all powerful in this movie. Snoke can feel Kylo's thoughts. He can't literally read his mind. That's consistent. And this is from a dumb scene, but it's a great line. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love. In my opinion, dumb scene, but that line sums up what everything in Star Wars is almost always about. Not fighting what you hate, saving what you love. Luke's force projection is a power that was in legends. And in this moment, it's from to me, it's the truest realization of a Jedi using the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack, right? And then lastly, Luke Skywalker was always impulsive, and his death scene is the culmination of his character arc. He's choosing to look hopefully at the twin sons again, which is what Yoda made fun of him for in The Empire Strikes Back, right? But then in his last moments, I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna die with peace and purpose.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

I think also, too, the use of the force in this movie. You know, we as we watch Star Wars, we want to go and we want to see things. Yes, this movie didn't give us the likes of that, it gave us the use of the force, how strong a Jedi is. And also something very interesting the force guy, how two people can make that connection and become one with the force. Yoda says it you know, living things connect us through the force, and those two Ray and Ben are living examples of coming together and being one with the force.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Well, I'll touch on the the dyad piece, is it is interesting because uh I I think I do agree a little bit to a certain degree from a certain point of view to of all of everything you just said. But the dyad is an interesting one because that was constructed by Palpatine. That wasn't really yeah, yes, he did it by force, but that was you know, and and his power in the force, but that wasn't the force itself, you know. He he he manipulated the force, you know, like he did with the Midaclorians and and and and and that sort of thing there, but he's a true manipulator of the force. So the force bringing Ray and Kylo together and them seeing each other and trying to understand how it's working, it's just a complete fabrication. So that in itself is is a is a lie, and that's that's sort of my take on the dye.

SPEAKER_06 32:11

Yeah, um you talk about the true Jedi's and stuff like that. It's like Ray wasn't a Jedi. If they went with the original storyline, I guess, and made Ray possibly Luke's daughter, she would have been really capable of doing all that. But then for her to be a nobody, and and you mentioned that whole scene with Rose and Finn, and I just think as like so many people sacrificed themselves throughout Star Wars for the for you know the rebellion or the resistance, and to see her completely take out his ship and then go, oh you know, I'm gonna kiss you, and and then you see the massive door just get completely evaporated, and there the first daughter can just march in and just take over everything. If it wasn't for Ray and her awesome overpowering, they would have all died.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Luke's character is is just way off compared to what George built, right? This is the same Luke that refused to kill Darth Vader even after Vader had committed decades of atrocities, you know, personally tortured his friends. Like he was just he was the baddie of all baddies, and how he you know his his his journey from becoming Anakin to becoming Vader and that whole story and the atrocity, everything that Vader did. Luke always believed, and amongst all of that, Luke always believed that there was good in people and that he found good in Vader, and right at that last second, he didn't want to kill him. This is this is the same Luke that then in The Last Jedi is considered to then kill Ben Solo, the son of his his best friend, essentially, because he sensed his power and what he may become and all these all these other things. It's such a similar story arc of Ben to Anak uh to Kylo as Anakin to Vader. And and why why Luke would have wanted to slaughter him right there and then, whether he had hesitations, you know, that we don't really know that that side of it. To me, it it's completely out of character and goes against everything Luke stood for in the original trilogy, everything that he was meant to be building in terms of the jet a new Jedi uh temple and everything that he wanted for the for the Jedi. Luke's character is just way off, and everything that he did, just not on point with what George built.

SPEAKER_06 34:30

You know, not just to kill his best friend's kid, it's his own nephew. He was he was happy to just kill him there and then. And you're you're 100% right. Like saving his own father and knowing there was redemption, and we see redemption within the Star Wars stories, like Dark Horse comics, so often. And then for him to not even give him a chance, not even have a chat, just gonna, I'm just gonna cut you down while you're asleep. That was not Luke.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Luke Skywalker is my favorite fictional character of all time, and I'll 100% give you, and my most hated thing about this movie is that he is so refusing to come back. That doesn't make sense to me. However, the third time we see a flashback, it is the truth, and the movie tells you it's the truth. Luke doesn't actually move to kill Ben Solo. He looks into his mind and sees that he will kill every single person that he loves, and in a moment of pure instinct, ignites his weapon and immediately regrets it. And this is the same guy that after Ben and Yoda are like, do not go to Cloud City. It is a trap. They're gonna be fine. Don't go. He's like, ah, I'm gonna go save them. And then they have to save him because he messes everything up. Same guy. Him and Han and Chewy and the droids are kicking it in the whatever that room is on the Death Star, and everything's fine. They're gonna wait for Ben. Oh my god, the princess, I'm gonna mess up the plan and go save her and you know, go have a fun adventure. He has always been impulsive, and that is his nature. That is who he is. Now, what I will not defend is him being unwilling to come back. But that moment of instinct and then immediately regretting it is absolutely it's the same thing Anakin was, right? Always trying to be too altruistic to save the people that he cares about. So but like I said, it ties into a biggest beef with the movie. But that moment of pure instinct followed by instant regret, I think that does fit Luke's character. That's all that I would say.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

What do these movies want to start around? The idea of hope, not just Luke Skywalker. You know, we want to have when we walk away from the theater an idea of hope. You know, and that's what this movie does. It gives us that feeling of hope at the end that there can be heroes beyond Luke Skywalker.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

Sensing the DL34s have been whipped from the sockets and and they're ready to go off. And the light the lightsabers are swinging to deflect any blaster fire we possibly can. So things are definitely heated up. Let's head into round two. Once again, we let the uh the positive side go first, as always. Matt and Johnny, take it away. Let's get those lightsaber swingings. Round two.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

I want to talk about Yoda's lessons, you know, throughout every movie, even in OG, even in the prequels. Yoda always gives us a Yoda quote. And so Yoda teaches Luke that knowledge is important, but growth comes from learning from mistakes. And this builds themes that are established throughout the saga rather than contradicting. It shows the Jedi Order continuing to evolve.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

The greatest teacher failure is an all-time Star Wars quote from not an all-time Star Wars movie, but in terms of being true to the lore, that is something that it would make sense for especially a Skywalker to learn in the Skywalker saga. You can make the debate that it couldn't probably shouldn't have been Luke, but that scene totally fits. And for just for Yoda to teach him one last lesson, as silly as that is, and then diving into the the crate of it all, the Luke appearing. Would I have loved to see him show up in the flesh and actually be the revolutionary we grew up believing him to be? Yes. But for him to single-handedly outsmart basically the entire first order, or at least just Ben, that that's Luke Skywalker. That to me is the epitome of Luke Skywalker. And I think that fits with who he is.

SPEAKER_06 38:28

You just said that Yoda told Luke to learn from his mistakes. What did Luke learn except for the fact that, oh, I made a mistake. I shouldn't have struck him down. Oh my god, I'm gonna collapse the whole school down. I'm just gonna piss off to a little island and never come back. He didn't learn anything. All he did was run away and cower like a coward. That is not a skywalker. That was Disney adding what the new the new the new how do I say it? The Game of Thrones, the subvert expectations. Everything they did in episode eight was completely to subvert expectations because that was fashionable.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

I think I think Yoda's words that echoed through you know 456, even one, two, three, he he teaches everything that the Jedi's need to know, and it's always more wisdom related, it's always more learn, learn as much as you can, take in as much as you can, and then pass on those teachings. And yeah, I mean, to a point, you know, uh, you know, the greatest teacher failure is was the words from from Yoda. And I think Luke not being able to really dive into that himself is probably his biggest failure. And the fact that he still needed Yoda to then show up and go, you still need to push on, dude. Like stop, you know, stop being a little bitch, get out there, teach the next generation of Jedi, do what you're supposed to do, and you know, be the master skywalker that you're meant to be.

SPEAKER_06 40:00

Episode A completely broke what we knew about Star Wars. We've got a few examples, just a couple. We have the resistance ship flying away from all the first order ships, and you're seeing them shoot cannons at them. Now, standard physics is you'd shoot something in space straight, and it would just continually go straight. Why are these massive arc cannons arcing and then suddenly just missing the back of the ships? That is not Star Wars, that isn't even normal space physics, and then you have the escape pod that manages to go all the way onto another planet. Why weren't we sending more escape pods out if they weren't catchable? And then for them to come back, you know, to save the day, sort of. Also, it just seems not possible without any detection. Uh and the last thing is the Admiral Hodor. Is it hold the door? Hold on, yeah. See, there's a Game of Thrones reference again. Hold the door. She turns you know, she she sends her her ships out and and then she does a 180 and does a suicide run, which hey, if if we could do that and send all these ships into hyperspace to destroy massive ships, why didn't the rebel just do the unmanned unmanned ships into hyperspace and just blow the crap out of the Death Star?

SPEAKER_02 41:27

None of that suited the law and and even the physics of space. Yeah, re-watching that again recently and just just seeing it, it just I just sort of put my head down and I just shook my head thinking, what's what's happening there? Like how is that how is that even possible? And definitely the escape pods, you know, you could argue something around they're being they're they're so small they're undetectable, but if they're you know able to be undetected, why are we not sending them to uh to planets?

SPEAKER_00 41:53

So, and first off, I'm not even gonna touch the hold on maneuver because I I agree. It doesn't make any sense. But as far as just physics in general and Star Wars, as a Geor as for how science in Star Wars works, there's a George Lucas quote that was around the time of the original trilogy said, Well, in my universe, there's fire in space when I want it. As soon as science comes into the conversation in Star Wars, it's why do ships drift in space? Why do you hear sound in space? Why are there explosions and fire and all of the like the science is it it it comes down to kind of the needs of the story, and then the same with the escape pods. Like, what story do they want to tell? And even with the Holdone maneuver, there's that Clone Wars episode where Anakin flies the giant battleship with an ion cannon. He hyperspaces it into a moon. Hyperspace collisions had existed before. I'm gonna stop defending the hold on maneuver because I can't. But in terms of in terms of like the science in Star Wars in general, that has always been kind of funky.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

So I don't I didn't recognize it, just quite honestly. Like y'all are y'all are smarter than me, and y'all probably saw that. But me as a moviegoer and I think other moviegoers and just as a Star Wars fan, I didn't see it, nor did it offer in any such way. Nor would I think it affected any way before that episode eight brings.

SPEAKER_04 43:24

Round three, generally the the we've had lightsaber swinging, we've had blaster bolts being fired, but now we're getting serious. Someone's brought a Death Star, someone's brought a whole pack of seismic charges ready to let off and hear that glorious sound. Let's hear it. Round three, a showdown of all showdowns, the final round of the Achuda debate. Star Wars, episode eight, the last Jedi is true to Star Wars lore.

SPEAKER_05 43:53

This has really set the scene for for a final round three, and it's gonna be really, really close. I'm excited. I'm excited to hear the last point.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

We talked about earlier how we said it's not a Jedi. I heard someone say not Jedi. You know, are we what is the definition of a Jedi? You know, we got a Jedi and this week, you know, we had a loose final state, and I think that's the final thing I just want to say. That was the definition of a true Jedi, the use of the force, not a single clash of the state, and he defeats the first order single-handedly himself. And of course, he has he fizzles away and goes back to his rocket and meditates before he dies. But he saves the resistance through his wisdom and sacrifice, again, coming back to this whole thing about Star Wars or in any movie that we want, George Lucas says, and he's even told for that let these movies center around home. So if we want to say it's not lore, I highly disagree because at the end of the day, this movie gave us a symbol of hope.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

To bring Luke Skywalker back into it. At the end of the movie, he doesn't cower. He is the hero he's meant to be. The content the point of contention for me is that he probably could have been there at the beginning, but outside of the amount of time that he spent hidden at the end of the movie, like Don just said, that is the definition of a Jedi. Not using a single weapon, not killing a single person, but saving the people that needed to be saved. Doing it purely, using the force purely for knowledge and defense. I do think this movie shows the force in an accurate way. Yoda doesn't say you can't pick up the X and it's too big. Only different in your mind. Does Ray pick up a bunch of rocks? Yes. I don't think the force has limits, and that is consistent. It's about how centered are you, how focused are you. Especially for people on the light side. So, in that regard, I think this movie shows that on multiple occasions.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

I might need hope myself, so we'll see. Look, you're right. Star Wars is all about hope. Can't touch that. But in terms of Luke bringing hope and the type of person that we were that he was, he he we we touched on this before, but Luke was hopeless. He was he was just down in the dumps. He ran away, he isolated himself, he went in, he went into he went into hiding. And and and not even to the not even to the same level as what like Yoda did when he went to Dagobar. He meditated, he learnt a lot more. Whereas we I mean what did we really don't know much about what Luke did over there, I don't believe. But you know, he sort of just sat there and and became a big mole man and yeah, drank, drank some old, drank some old baby milks and until Ray turns up, and even then he has no hope whatsoever. You know, I will touch on one thing as well, a slight rebuttal to it, but a little bit of a side side side quest there. If Luke was that in touch with the force at the time, which he should be, if he was a George Lucas Skywalker, a Luke Skywalker from George, uh he he would have sensed Han's death. He he seemed like he had no idea. And that to me, he's just dropped off, he's closed himself off from the force, which Ray actually even says that while they're there on Oktu. And I too, I think Luke has just lost all hope in my in my eyes. So he didn't defeat the first order.

SPEAKER_06 47:20

I think Luke, the Luke that we knew, the reckless, crazy Luke, he was a coward in the whole movie, and he wasn't powerful. He did a little force ghost thing and then he died straight after. It's just like, bro, you're only like what 60? How old was Yoda? I know different species, but it just he was a coward, he didn't have force powers, he just sort of mirrored himself, and I'll get into that in my next point. Like I said before, I it has to be its lore, and Luke was not a law Star Wars lore Luke. And when you have the main character as a Skywalker, you become completely opposite, and like I said, Game of Thrones subvert expectations, everything that Luke that Luke did was subverting our expectations, and because of that, I think broke so much canon law of Star Wars. Yeah, was it cool to watch? Yeah, but then the more you thought about it and you're like, Did Luke really die? Did he just turn up and I got excited and he died?

SPEAKER_02 48:25

The Star Wars, the space battles, the you know, with the physics stuff aside, that being the problem. But the you know, Poe as a character, everything that goes on in space as the resistance, I think is great. I really actually enjoy that. I really enjoy that spot. But when it comes to the law, like you can't really break law when it comes to that sort of stuff. But when it comes to the law around Luke and the force and those sorts of things, The Last Jedi introduces force abilities that are just that have been disconnected and we haven't like we've been established in previous movies. You know, Leia surviving in space and just being able to sort of fly back to the ship and you know, bring herself in. Is she moving herself through the force? Is she bringing the ship closer to her? You know, yes, there's been stories and uh and understandings that Luke had trained with Leia at sorry, Leia had trained with Luke at some at some point, but at what point have has any of generic you know, Star Wars Goer really understood that Leia had enough force power and was that in tune with the force to be able to just do whimsically do that and pull that up out of nowhere and just go, yep, I'm gonna bring myself back down the ship and survive. And Star Wars has always expanded on the force, but usually with training and with lore and clear storytelling. And episode eight just doesn't do that, it just sort of happens, and you know, Ray has always just felt something inside her to go, I need I've got this thing inside me, I don't know what to do with it. Whereas as Luke just uh when he was training with Yoda, he was able to build that up almost out of nowhere. You know, him him being him being Vader's child, Annika's child is a bit different, so there's there's more storytelling than there, there's lore in that. But in this film, many of these abilities seem to appear when the plot needs them and when the story just needs it to happen. So which which makes makes the universe feel less grounded, it feels less consistent with the law that had come before in 456 and 123.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

We said something about the use of the force or the lack of the force. When's the one time on screen or film that we saw a force-sensitive being transport their essence to another planet? That is that is raw power. Okay, some some can argue, well that looks at the use of the you know, it's his idea. It looks at their teachings towards power, towards anger, towards hate. He showed his true power, he showed his wise and the ways of the Jedi going to another planet. He was going to do this, his teachings I'm gonna do this, this way, as I call it. I mean, honestly, it was what I wanted to see as a lightsaber duel of all lightsaber tools, absolutely another thing would say that he was a coward, he wasn't a coward. I'm gonna take this to this point, you know, as someone who has a PTSD he basically tried to kill his enemy, how would you feel? What would you seclude yourself from? You would seclude yourself from from the rest of the world. Knowing me personally, I would do the same thing. Why on earth would I want to go back into the world and you know start redoing the Jedi thing? No, I went against the order itself. And so what at the end of all of this, we're getting into Star Wars story. We got told, we got told a Star Wars story. Yeah, some of it has its rights, it has its downfalls, but at the end of the day, we have a story that is true to its Lord and true to Skywalker. Who I I think personally wasn't a coward, he was just going through it.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Does he run away? Does he hide for most of the movie? Yes, that is not what he does at the end. Not only is that not what he does at the end, he, like I said before, he is there as much as he can be at the end. They they have said that they did not know that he would be able to, that anybody could lift the X-Wing out of the swamp and fly it. The ship was dead. So they did not intend for there to be a way for him to get there. But again, lore-wise, at the end of the movie, he is the ultimate Luke Skywalker, and he does also fall back on his youthful ideas, idealistic ways from when he was a kid, and choose to look at the twin sunset, like I said at the very beginning, and die with hope. Was it an epic, amazing, super force-powered battle? No. Is that what Yoda ever wanted him to do? Absolutely not. Under no circumstances is that anything Ben or Yoda ever taught Luke Skywalker to do or wanted him to do, right? And now, I was very upset when somebody brought up Leia being Space Mary Poppins, because I have no defense for that. The only other thing that I can say is there have been two other there have been two other instances in lore since that movie that other Jedi's have pulled themselves through space with the force. Kanan did it on Rebels, and then Luke did it in uh Canon Comics. Granted, that's after the fact, so is what it is. But again, that that ties back to to me how focused are you, how centered are you, how surrendering to the force are you. Wild things always happen in Star Wars. The Jedi are supposed to be kind of overpowered, or the stor to a degree, or the story doesn't really work. But in terms of Star Wars lore, the other thing that we haven't talked about, the force times between Ray and Kylo, I'll be quick. That to me is a very logical next step in the exact same thing that we saw Luke and Vader doing, or rather, Vader doing two Luke in Empire, and Luke doing to Leia in Empire. If I can reach out and talk to someone, it would make sense that especially if there was an outside person bridging them together, I'd be able to literally see them. I think that all that fits with Star Wars lore. Whoa.

SPEAKER_04 54:14

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Alright. This has been huge. There's points on both sides that I am full, fully in with and that I agree with wholeheartedly. And it's like I'm being torn apart. Literally. You've all done such an amazing job. Rogue, did you have yours ready to go?

SPEAKER_05 54:34

I can tell we're both sweating here. Um, I mean, in in summary, are we here to talk Luke Skalker becoming a wise and stronger Jedi master in an exile? Or did he become a grumpy old bloke drinking green milk and yelling at tourists? You know, the the argument could be made for both, and it certainly was throughout this debate. Luke ultimately, through his sacrifice, so so much an ode to his character, ultimately saved the resistance and brought that symbol of hope, which is what Star Wars is all about. And you can't argue with that, you really can't, that it was, in fact, Ray reaching the the ultimate level of her powers that ultimately defeated the resistance in a strong rebuttal from bitted saber guy and Syndicate Customs, which it's it's really, really hard to judge this one. Incredibly hard, because we're sitting here as fans of these of these films, and we have our own criticisms of the film. And I certainly would have to say that never would I step into the ring to defend this film. The fact that our friends from Force of Others and Medler's Corner have come in today to to take on that charge, even when every single ounce of their character doesn't agree. My hat's off to you and all credit. Look, this came down to the wire. I'm not gonna lie. Heading into the last round, bearded saber guy and syndicate customs were slightly ahead. But I thought the the last round, Force of Others and Medler's Corner podcast, really drove home some great points and had some epic counterpoints as well. You know, when have we ever seen a force projection to another planet? That sheer power of Luke showed that his ultimate sacrifice was about protecting and saving others, and led perfectly into Ray taking on that mantle for the Jedi Order in the subsequent film. So for me, uh it was neck and neck 40 out of 45 for both contributors today. And so, Odie, I hate to do this to you, but it's over to you.

SPEAKER_04 56:35

When Rogue puts me in these positions, I've got to be harsh. It's time to let go of the past and let go of everything that that was before and to move on. And that's really hard for us when we love something so much. Round two, growth comes from making mistakes. You know, the quote from from Yoda, the greatest teacher failure is yeah, absolutely, rebuttal that around well, there's no more skywalk. We're trying to push away from that. So the attempt to subvert expectation in Yoda's words, Luke's not actually there. And I think the comment was Luke's uh being a little bitch, which I to mention of Holdor Hold Or. Um I don't know, when it comes down to marking of Star Wars lore, I've got to be picky and I've got to be aggressive on this because while the points were strong, the rebuttals were stronger. And we could have had a whole debate just on rebuttals and have you guys go back and forth with each other. It was neck and neck for me as well. Force of others, meddler's corner. You have taken it out.

SPEAKER_02 57:31

It was one point in it again. Well done, well done, force of others and medless corner. Absolutely well done. The rebuttals were on point, and yeah, this was uh this was a hard one. This is a hard one to to rebuttal, have rebuttals both ways. So, yeah, and Syndicate, shout out to you, man. It was awesome to work with you and everyone else.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

Y'all are y'all are incredible, Mike. Good job. Y'all are awesome, and I want to have y'all on my podcast.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Same. I also want to invite y'all and force of others if you're willing. But uh also just fun fact I read the instructions wrong. I didn't realize we had another point at the beginning of every round, and so I was like, oh, okay, I gotta make something up.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

I was like, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, notes, notes, notes.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

I guess I'll just I'll just talk about Luke more.

SPEAKER_05 58:24

Yeah, we picked up on that. Yeah. Uh that it was it was awesome debate. And it really, to me, like we've been saying, it came down to the rebuttals. And I think that's the first time we've ever had a debate like that. And it was it was a lot of fun. It was actually a lot of fun to listen to, a lot of fun to judge. And um, yeah, it's been so awesome having all you guys on. This was this was a powerhouse of a debate.

SPEAKER_04 58:48

Absolutely a huge powerhouse. You can find Matt on at Force of Others podcasts on Instagram, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you find your podcasts and the little snippets on Insta is always fun. Another shout out to Donnie. Thank you so much for Medler's Corner and coming on today, taking the wind. They'll be very happy with that. And finally, I'd like to thank Syndicate Customs Creations. You can find him on his website, and of course, to the Bearded Sabre guy, which you can find on Instagram at the Bearded Sabre. So thank you very much. If you didn't agree with us, Monday is the release of the poll. Get onto Instagram, vote, cast your vote on who you thought should have won at Odrog underscore culture. Now it's time for Honor the Gore. Honor the Gore. Okay, everybody, here we are. Honor the Gore. Where we are going to talk about a question from the Mighty guy, a local listener who has chimed in about some websites saying that the sequel trilogy is going to be retcon. We are going to put a stamp on this right now. We've read the article from Screen Rant, which a lot of other websites have documented and noted. They're basically saying that the word of retcon, what it means is that it's just meaning that they're filling it up with stories. Exactly what happened with the Clone Wars. But it just, in our opinion, I think, well, for mine, and Rogue, I'm going to ask you all soon, but I just think that it's just enhancing the stories that was. What do you think, Rogue?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:19

Yeah, I I agree. I think the definition of Recon has been lost in translation or maybe lost in the fans' interpretation. I think we a lot of us hang on to the hope hope that you know the sequel the sequel trilogy is going to be completely renewed and and completely replaced. But I really just do not think that is reality. I think like we're saying the definition behind Recon is more around fleshing the stories out a little bit better, which I think is what the article's referring to.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:46

It's almost like we've got our creators, as we said during our episode, that we've got our creators actually paying homage to what has been done before, and that's what we need to try and do. And that's what was done with the Clone Wars with episode two and episode three and episode one with the prequels. There was a lot of fan backlash about that time as well. So we're just going to get into this, you know, Geeks and Games, Generation Tech, who's a great YouTuber. Give him a follow if you can. There's Screen Rant as well, Comic Find, GameSpot. Look, they're all reputable places and they're all really good. And they share a lot of great Star Wars content. But at the end of the day, sometimes things become really misleading. You know, some of the evidence they've listed. Disney's not putting new trilogy characters on a poster. Disney did not show sequel trilogy in 2025. No cameo appearances or acknowledgement, acknowledgement of sequel trilogy characters, sequel trilogy. It's not even in the top 10 Star Wars streaming content and creator of the trilogy, Kathleen Kennedy, has stepped down. While that's all going on, there's no way that they're going to completely retcon. But I guess the question here, and Rogue, I'm going to throw it to you soon, is if there was a retcon, what would you change?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:53

I I will say it before we get into it. Until we hear su such things from Lucasfilm Dave Filone, then it can't be something we believe. No matter what we read online, it's not it's not accurate. But what what would I change? Well, I I actually think the sequel trilogy had a lot that was going well for it. I think the the characters they introduced are genuinely good ingredients for a good for a good trilogy. You know, Ray, Kylo Ren, Finn, Poe. I liked Exegol as a concept. I liked that Luke I like Luke's final sacrifice. I like the idea of a fallen solo, the remnants of the Empire evolving into something new. You know, these are the these are things I really enjoyed. I don't think the problem was the characters, I think it was the lack of a unified story, which we've talked a lot about in the episode. So I think when it comes to to Reconning, particularly the Force Awakens, I'd make a few changes. I'd give Finn a stronger force-sensitive arc from the beginning. I'd explain Snoke's origins earlier. I'd make the new republic feel like an actual galactic government rather than something destroyed in five minutes. Show Luke actively searching for an ancient threat rather than simply hiding it. The movie ends then with Ray finding Luke exactly as it did. When we get into episode eight, Luke returns as the master we expected. This is where I'd make the biggest changes. Star Wars The Last Jedi has brilliant ideas, but push them too far. I'd keep Kylo killing Snoke. We talked about that. It's an epic scene. The force connection between Ray and Kylo, I'd keep it. Luke's disillusionment, I'd keep it. I'd change that Luke would still be troubled, but not completely withdrawn from the force. He would spend most of the film training Ray and uncovering a larger ancient Sith threat. And then Finn would lead a stormtrooper rebellion rather than the Canto Byte subplot. Snoke's death would reveal he was merely a servant of something bigger. So Luke actually survives episode eight in My Retcon, and the Galaxy finally sees its legendary Jedi Master return, which we talked about, you know, in the debate. We wanted to see that. Then we get to episode 9, the final film in the trilogy. This is where the I believe the trilogy should have climaxed, but instead we got somehow Palpatine returned, which we we've talked a bit a little bit about, you know, in our hyperspace hot takes and also our debate. Yes. And what about the dagger if you're gonna get it? Snow the first order.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:24

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all that's all included. That's all included.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:28

You've got to include the dagger, right? You can't get rid of the greatest MacGuffin of all time.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:36

But I I would have actually revealed that Snooke and the First Order were pawns of an ancient Sith cult operating in the unknown regions for decades. So I wouldn't even I wouldn't even go down the Palpatine line. The final conflict becomes Ray embracing the Jedi legacy, Finn becoming the first new Jedi of a new generation, Kylo Ren seeking redemption, Luke leading the Jedi one final time. So Luke dies in episode nine after helping defeat the Sith threat, allowing Ray Finn and a redeemed Ben solo to rebuild the Jedi Order.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:06

That is that's that's how that's a quick that's a quick run through and a good run through for what we've just been talking about. Absolutely. Well mine, you know, we've talked about this before, but mine would be following the the Marvel, the Marvel act of of inspired by comic books as Marvel does, still tells similar stories. I would have loved to see Darth Cadus meet his demise to Jana Solo, you know, the way that the books have done it. It's always really interesting to see how our our love of the EU is and the Legends lore is kind of dripped fed through even more so now with everything that's coming up and kind of the inspiration for all these documents around revitalizing uh or reconning, sorry, the the sequel trilogy. It's actually from all the the drip feeding, I think, from all the legends stuff. And I would just still have that in my recon. I would have Jason Solo, Jaina, and Anakin's Solo all introduced in this episode seven, with us becoming you know really into the their relationship. Episode eight, I'd have the a war break out later on down the line and have a little bit of time between them, and have Anakin Solo die and Jason Solo saving the day of the war, only to be turning to the dark side at the end of the film, even if it's just a glimpse of his eyes turning to those Sith eyes, and then jump time jump again into the final episode where we see Darth Cadis in his full glory and killing Mara Jade only to then be avenged by his twin sister Jayna. And I would love to see the the relationship of give us a kind of yeah, yeah, give us but it doesn't have to be the same story. It's as I said, I do what Marvel's doing now with Disney is is that they're being inspired by the comic books, but we're still getting Spider-Man doing Spider-Man things, you know? We're still and it's still Peter Parker. It's not yeah, it's not Kylo Re it's Odie.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:08

With this recon, I've got a very important question. Go on. I've got a very important question, Odie. Sorry to interrupt. Would we be introducing would we be introducing Kipan? Of course we're introducing Kip Darren on the bitch.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:18

You better believe it. Why would we not introduce Kip Darren? For those people who want to do a deep dive, Kip Darren, have a look. Look up. It's Rogue's favorite Jedi. Yeah. Yeah, check out our early episode. Look, and of course I'd still have the the Sith dagger. Because how can you not how can you not have the greatest McGuffin of all time? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:45

We didn't even mention it in our Dark Side hot takes. Oh my god, look at that on the horizon. It looks like my dagger. Hang on a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. I'm gonna hold my dagger up. Two seconds.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:56

Oh my goodness. We didn't even mention it in our dark side hot takes. It really surprised me. I was like, come on. We have to we have to bring that in.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:06

Wow, I was waiting. I was waiting for this opportunity.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:09

Where I say there's no retconning the dagger. You're keeping it in always. Yeah. Alright. Look, that's all we have time for.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:19

Oh, that's great. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:21

Yeah, thanks so much for joining us on this episode. It's a long one, it's a big one. We hope you enjoyed it. Hey, if you've got an opinion on Star Wars, you can reach out to us and tell us it. Because we want to hear it. Believe it or not, we do. And if you've got haters online, we want to hear their opinions. If you're one of the people that you know love to rage bait, we want to hear you. We want you to rage bait with us. Don't we? Really? Because we'll debate. Or rage bait it. Yeah, 100%. Against us, with us, whatever goes. Even though we're not rage baiters and we're not haters. We love everything. Star Wars, and we love that you love Star Wars. So thank you so much. Rogue, did you want to finish off with anything? Any insights? Any deep insights from Rogue today?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:10

Just complimenting what you've what you've already said, that Star Wars fans of all of all backgrounds and all opinions and all thoughts and feelings are welcome on our show. And that I had an absolute ball today. I really enjoyed the debate. I reckon this is probably one of the best debates we've ever had, and I can't wait for our listeners to hear it. But outside of that, Odie, I think it's time. May the force be with you. May the force be with you.